Social/political foo: IVF

[alpharaposa]

Catholic school teacher fired for using in-vitro fertilization technique to get pregnant.

I've been doing some thinking about IVF. We have this idea of what it's like, but in the debate over embryo stem cell research we found out that there are all these embryos destined for the trash bin sitting around. Where did they come from? From the process of in vitro fertilization. Hundreds of viable embryos as a waste product. For anybody who opposes abortion, this is a catastrophe.

See, they don't just stick one egg and some sperm together to get an embryo. They get as many eggs (using fertility drugs) out of the ovaries as they can, put them with some sperm and let any fertilized eggs develop a little into small embryos. And then they attempt implantation, but that's not always successful on the first try. With the extras, they can keep trying for a while, but eventually they succeed. What happens to the leftover embryos? They get either stored or 'disposed of' in some fashion. If the couple doesn't want them, nobody else will take them. In the effort to create one life, a dozen lives may be created and then literally thrown away. Many people resort to these techniques, creating the hundreds of 'waste' embryos that were the point of contention in the stem cell debate.

That is an amazingly high price to get one baby 'of your own'.

The other points are also very important. In That Hideous Strength, CS Lewis writes of people living on the moon who have 'cold marriages'. They don't have sex with each other- they each lie with copies of the other person instead. They conceive without ever having to touch. Now, if that concept doesn't leave you cold, I don't know what will.

And yet, and yet... that's what IVF is. It's conception without sex. In our society, it's a thing of last resort, but to bioethicists, it's the wave of the future. I don't know how many science fiction settings there are where people who actually have children through regular old sex are weird, but there's plenty.

Once upon a time, I thought IVF innocent- even wonderful. Then I learned what the price is.

Comments

[prester-scott.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

Infertile couples can adopt.

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

Yes.

I have a health issue that could potentially make it very difficult for me to conceive naturally, if I am ever in a position to try. My gynaecologist tells me, "Don't worry! There are all kinds of amazing fertility treatments out there now!"

Yes, there are. But quite a lot of them are moral abominations, even if hardly anyone realizes it.

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

if I am ever in a position to try

::snicker:: sorry, didn't mean to say quite that

[aefenglommung.livejournal.com]

As Cleopatra said to Antony, "I am not prone to argue."

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

I commented on the same story in my journal, so I won't re-iterate here. However... I think that in the end, no one--not the religious, not the people in general--really care. Look at it this way: When was the last time you, your friends, your church, me, my family, my colleages--when was the last time any of us found an action so reprehensible we were able to take action on it?

Oh sure, we vote our different ways, but that's the barest a single person can do. When was the last time any one of us was willing to sacrifice our relatively comfortable lives for a cause? When was the last time your friends sold their house and moved into a mobile home so they could use the money to try and put a stop to something like IVF, abortion, or any other conflict that--according to religious doctrine--is the murder of an innocent? I can't name even one person, and my parents do quite well in their business and are very strong Catholics. Anyone can donate from their excess, but none of us is willing to ante up to the real bet.

And it's not exclusively a religions point, it regards Americans in general, much of the Western world in general. Things like IVF, even if it meant the destruction of one billion potential human lives, is so low on anyone's list of priorities that I guarantee you'll be planning your next vacation before you wept for one of those lives. It does not mean you're a bad person, but ultimately no one these days makes sacrifices for another. Oh, the military folks may die in the line of duty, and people may be the odd hero for running into a burning building--but much of that is adrenaline, a spur of the moment thing.

If it sickens people that one child may live for every few hundred that die , consider that the medicines we so value today exist because of entire histories of mistakes, errors, deaths, even murders of the past. No one seems to mourn them, either. Instead we are happy for what we have, regardless of the cost. Are the people who own a reasonably decent home worried that illegal immigrants worked it without medical coverage or long-term pension plans? Not a bit. Are you worried that the plastics in your computer were manufactured with the assistance of children overseas? I doubt any of us so much as blink an eye. When was the last time anyone cared about the lives of those dying in Africa to the point we had to do something about it--even if it was just to get enough money to one family so they would have food, blankets, and a roof over their heads?

People can talk about the cost of living, but the bottom line is that if there is a devil, we have already sold our souls to him in exchange for the comforts we enjoy now. Homes, cars, computers.... and for some of us, children. What do any of us really think Jesus would have to say when the average American values his home more than the lives of a single person living in their own country who wanders the streets sick, without medication because the government they elected decided they were not worth the price? If there is a Christian God, I assure you, we are damned, all of us.

[stryck.livejournal.com]

If your bottom line is that nobody cares and we're all doomed anyway so it doesn't matter, then just say so.

My bottom line is that it does matter. Even if it's just one person who cares. Even if nobody cares. It matters.

Nihilism is not welcome here.

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

I think human life matters. And I regret seeing even a single human life harmed by the selfish actions of another.

There is a great deal of difference between regret--which espouses no actions to be taken, and moral outrage--which demands that a person fight for those who cannot. It's not nihilism, but observation of the human animal and the habits therein that prove what a person truly feels. I suppose it's safer to say that the number of dead people, dead children simply does not matter enough yet for anyone to do anything more than regret that it happened.

[stryck.livejournal.com]

And so, posting and telling people about what is involved is doing nothing? I didn't even know how IVF worked until I investigated things during the debate over stem cells. How many people never realized? How many people would change how they live their lives if they knew?

Your definition of regret is nihilism. It removes even the impact of changing one's future decisions. It's a giant shrug that dismisses all effort. Even other people's efforts.

Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is. You would not only not do anything yourself, but tell others that there's no point in being upset, and so forestall anything they might do. If I or anybody else were to follow your advice, we'd all give up now and never do anything but consume and die.

Even the smallest impact is marked. God numbered the hairs on my head and counts every sparrow that falls. There are other people here already who have chosen not to use this method because of its moral implications. That is not much, but it is not nothing, either. Even the very small things are worth defending and celebrating, as much as the very big things.

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

There is something I came to the conclusion of many years ago, and it essentially can be updated for use here.

"God has given us so much; so much wealth, so much knowledge, so much property and prosperity. When there is a problem and people are in mortal danger, we have the ability to act on it and help. When God calls us forth on judgement day and asks what you did for the least of His people, are you going to tell Him that you blogged about it?"

I don't mean this as a slam against people who cry out to educate others, but that simply can't be enough. If Jesus overturning the money changers in the temple should demonstrate, when something is absolutely important, we must take action. Words can only go so far, and ultimately, the words shared here, you, me, and anyone else--they won't change a thing. Maybe Christians are comfortable only pointing out the errors and evils of the world, but I think God expects better of us, and I think that there is a heavy price to be levied against us when we value buying the latest DVD more than even attempting to save the life of a single human being.

This isn't meant to insult you, so please do not take it that way. I can tell my daughter over and over again that I love her, but that does little good when she needs to eat, or has a very full diaper. God created man to action from the very beginning--it was man's role to tend the garden in Eden. I simply wonder at what point anyone will demand actions from themselves, how many lives must it cost before we--both you and I--are compelled to take action on behalf of those who cannot save themselves. And ultimately, what price must be levied against us for turning our backs on a problem in the hopes someone else will fix it, with the idea that it's someone else's issue. Remember the good Samaritan (my favorite parable). Thinking good thoughts, alerting others isn't enough. You have to make it personal and get involved, or else it is all worthless.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[stryck.livejournal.com]

And beyond talking to people and persuading them is... what? You've already dismissed voting as an idle activity. That pretty much leaves... killing people or destroying technology.

Yeah, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. "For the children."

[anher.livejournal.com]

Allow me to disagree.. strongly.

When was the last time any one of us was willing to sacrifice our relatively comfortable lives for a cause?

Every damn day I'm enlisted, thank you very much. I could be making three to four times as much as I am right now in the prvate sector, and I'm planning on signing up for another four years of it. Why? Because someone has to be out there to protect the freedoms that every citizen of this country has.


I guarantee you'll be planning your next vacation before you wept for one of those lives.

Granted, I may not actually weep but that's now a fact locked away in my brain and it means I'll never even consider IVF because of the morally reprehensible actions they take with (by their definition) non-entities.

If there is a Christian God, I assure you, we are damned, all of us.

Shall we go to the source for the answer(s) to this one?

'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.' John 3:16-18

'I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.' John 8:51

'Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man whio does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is lord." and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:5-13

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

Granted, I may not actually weep but that's now a fact locked away in my brain and it means I'll never even consider IVF because of the morally reprehensible actions they take with (by their definition) non-entities.

A light kept in a basket helps no one. Locked in your brain... and that you will personally not do something... helps no one. When good people do nothing, then what hope do the innocent have?

[prester-scott.livejournal.com]

It's a good thing we're not justified by our good works, and that God will repay all evils (that have not been laid at the feet of the Cross by penitents), and that God fights for the right whether or not human beings cooperate with Him. Otherwise, we'd have a real cause for concern.

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

There should always be cause for concern. I think it the height of hubris when essentially all Christians naturally assume they are destined for heaven. The warning Jesus gave is rather terrifying when you think about it, when you honestly realize the implications of 'Many are called, few are chosen'. Throughout history, Christians have been certain and assured of their place in heaven--people who in our eyes now were highly immoral.

I would rather err on the side that I have not done enough, than expect God should recognize my magnificence, that He should revel in my good deeds. I tend to think of it like a football game: you can play by all the rules, and still lose.

[prester-scott.livejournal.com]

Right, but that isn't quite what I was addressing.

You yourself have said that there is no way anyone can do "enough." I agree. We are desperately wicked through and through.

However, the redeemed are those who cling to God by faith and are being made perfect. Perfectionism and fatalism are not appropriate for Christians. Love and trust are. Obedience and virtue not based in love and trust are of no merit.

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

My apologies, I had misunderstood what you were referencing.

I think in this instance, however, no one is interested in doing anything more than merely talking. No one is willing to give up any worldly possessions, no one is willing to walk away from their job to try and start a fund to educate people and stop this from occurring. No one would even consider selling their home and use the money to try and find alternatives or make the process illegal. I honestly wonder if our good thoughts balance out the cosmic scales in a way that pleases God... especially when you measure words against the weight of millions of dead children.

[prester-scott.livejournal.com]

I don't know about "no one," but certainly not many, you're right. I don't mean to diminish our responsibility at all. We are guilty.

However, resources are few, priorities are pressing, and needs run by in an endless parade. It's easy to be cowed by the enormity of it all even if you do care. Even if you care and try to act, that's no guarantee of success in rescuing anyone. Also, talking is not nothing; it encourages and influences others.

Don't you think you're being a little severe? "Lord, if thou art extreme to mark what is done amiss, who may abide it?"

"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." Who made you the judge?

[anher.livejournal.com]

... helps no one.


So by having been educated on this and deciding that I'm not going to do this and sacrifice my potential children just to have one I'm not helping anyone?

When good people do nothing, then what hope do the innocent have?

I'm not doing nothing. I may not be doing anything radical like bombing an abortion clinic or going out and protesting but I am doing something by choosing not to get this process done. I'd rather not think about any children that stryck and I may have being used for research before the become 'real people' according to Bioethics. Nor do I want someone else picking and choosing which one is 'best' out of a batch. I'm perfectly happy to take whatever comes.

[altonwings.livejournal.com]

The point is that no one is willing to give up what they have. Giving lip service is too easy. A few dollars here and there are affordable by almost all.

No one is willing to sell their home to fund a drive to stop it.
No one is willing to fundimentally alter their lifestyle to try to stop it.
No one is willing to take a poorer lifestyle so that the rest of the money they make will be used to find alternatives, to educate the public, to make this a national issue.

It's quietly forgotten, because by tomorrow we will all be discussing how expensive gas is, and how it will affect the vacations we have planned over the summer. My mother always had a saying, "Talk is cheap". I don't think people appreciate just how little talk alone helps anyone.

[stryck.livejournal.com]

No one is willing to take a poorer lifestyle so that the rest of the money they make will be used to find alternatives, to educate the public, to make this a national issue.

Not true.

"Commercial interests offer in-vitro fertilization as standard practice," Father Pacholczyk said. "The Catholic Church is the only voice opposed to it." But there are morally acceptable alternatives to in-vitro fertilization, and Dr. Thomas Hilgers is trying to let more Catholic couples know that.

In response to Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI’s encyclical reaffirming the Church’s opposition to contraception, Hilgers devoted his life to the study of human reproduction, developing the Creighton Model System of Natural Family Planning and eventually opening the Pope Paul VI Institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. (http://www.staycatholic.com/what_is_wrong_with_in-vitro_fertilization.htm)

[anher.livejournal.com]

A few dollars here and there are affordable by almost all.

So if we took those few affordable dollars from everyone and added them up it'd be a rather sizable chunk of money. Which means it could be put towards doing something more visible... Isn't this how charities and special interest groups work already?

No one ..... to educate the public, to make this a national issue.

Because it's not necessary to do those things to make it a national issue. Besides, and I hate to say it, it probably wouldn't accomplish much were you to take some of those drastic measures, yet when a celebrity goes out and helps out with a token bit of effort they're touted as heroes? A bit backwards don't you think?

I don't think people appreciate just how little talk alone helps anyone.

Talking is one of the best ways to get the information out there for people so they can be educated and spread out the information. It's the whole if you tell two people something, and they tell two people, and so on and so on, you eventually will have reached a large audience by only telling two people to start. I have no idea how many conversations have been started about this topic in people's homes since having read this, do you?

Three excellent rejoinders by anhert

[asl-ninja.livejournal.com]

I am both impressed and proud of you, for your well-crafted comments and responses in this thread; and, I'm impressed by Stryck's opening salvo. Please pass my greetings to Stryck.

asl_ninja